Remembering Stephen Lewis
Paikin: I do want to talk about the sublime as well. The sublime I’m referring to on this day is a guy that I think we all knew to a greater or lesser extent, and that’s the great Stephen Lewis. As long as I’ve got Kathleen Monk here to start things off — Kathleen, how well did you know him and what are you thinking about him today?
Monk: Well, like any New Democrat, I’ve been following Stephen Lewis for years. Even before, frankly, I was a card-carrying New Democrat. I followed his career and listened to him speak at conventions and schools around Canada and obviously on the international stage. He was quite simply a legend, a political legend. And what really is amazing about Stephen Lewis is despite him going on to a very lauded career internationally, he was always truly a social democrat at heart and never abandoned those New Democratic principles. Someone who fought as Ontario New Democratic leader for working people, and then fought on the global stage against injustice and unfairness and around the HIV/AIDS crisis specifically.
I’m sure you would agree with me, Steve, and others, that Stephen Lewis was probably Canada’s best political orator. His ability to command a room and move them to action was just incredible. I was speaking about this last night on one of the network televisions when we learned of his passing — that he had an ability to almost pierce your heart with his words, with his passion, with his urgency, with his moral clarity. And it really moved people to action and moved people like me to action — that you could actually get involved in politics and make a difference and really contribute and fight social injustices at home and abroad. It’s a huge loss. We’ve lost our lion, as they say. I feel like God broke the mould after they made Stephen Lewis.
Paikin: Kathleen, I’ll take issue with one word you said there. You said probably the best orator in politics. Not probably. Number one, for sure, the greatest I’ve ever seen. I’ve seen some good ones. I’ve seen some great ones. But I put him at the absolute top of the pyramid. Just a preternatural ability to take an audience in the palm of his hand and just take them on a journey, which was spectacular. Tony, how well did you know him?
Clement: I knew him through my late stepfather, who was a member of the Ontario Legislature and a Davis cabinet minister. They knew one another, and it was through that connection that I knew him. This goes back to the mid-1970s. He was part of the broader kind of household in that sense. He had that connection to John T. Clement. I followed his career very avidly as a result of that family connection, and would agree with everything that you said about his passion and his ability to turn a crowd. I confess I did not agree with him on many, many issues, but I did agree —
Monk: That never stops Stephen Lewis from getting along just fine with Tories like Bill Davis and Brian Mulroney.
Clement: That’s right. There’s actually a lot of issues where socialists and conservatives align these days. I just think he was a force of nature in Canadian politics. He deserves to be lauded. I lauded him on Twitter and got the usual suspects who have no context to immediately think that I’ve turned socialist or something because I’m lauding a dead man who was a socialist. But aside from those idiots on Twitter — and I use that term not advisedly — I stand by my comments. He was an important part of our Canadian history and deserves all the accolades he gets.
Paikin: Martha, let’s get you to weigh in.
Hall Findlay: I had the good fortune of meeting him a few times, but I wouldn’t say I knew him — which my loss. But man, I was an admirer from afar. Best orator ever. Kathleen, love the passion with which you talk about his passion. He for sure was one of the key people who inspired me at some point to get involved, not just in politics, but in helping, doing what we can to make a difference. I did not become a New Democrat. It didn’t matter. What he inspired in us was that passion to do something. And we could absolutely disagree on how to get there, but no one ever could doubt Stephen Lewis’s passion for people, for our communities, for our country, and for people disadvantaged around the world. A huge loss, but an inspiration that will never stop.
Paikin: I think the next conversation then goes to, okay, next generation. Part of his legacy is his life and part of it is the guy we’re about to talk about, his son Avi.
Job one for Avi Lewis
Paikin: We’ve had a few days now to think about the new leader of the federal NDP, Avi Lewis, a very impressive first-ballot victory last weekend in Winnipeg. Once he finishes taking some family time, obviously, to grieve the loss of his father, what do you say is job one for him as the new leader of the party?
Monk: What a busy first few days for a new leader, right? Both on a professional and a personal level. I’d be remiss if I didn’t remark on how Avi in his winning speech did cite his father, and how he demanded up until his dying days all the political data on the campaign and how close his son was to winning. So, political animal Stephen Lewis to his last breaths. It’s a beautiful thing that he got to be alive long enough to see his son win.
First job, job number one, has got to be relevancy, Steve. We know the NDP has been in the political wilderness for almost a year. It was at the end of April, April 29th, when Jagmeet Singh was delivered a crushing blow — historic losses in the 2025 election, and he resigned his seat. So essentially New Democrats have been leaderless since that time, although kudos to Don Davies for the incredible job he did in the interim. Big fan of Mr. Davies. But we have to get back to not just rebuilding the party, but actually being relevant to Canadians.
We were excluded from the conversation, largely, in the last election because New Democrats didn’t have an answer to the economic threats that were being posed by Donald Trump and the crisis that Canadians were facing. Not only the crisis of possible annexation, but the economic threats that they felt in their core. And they didn’t turn to New Democrats. So how does Avi Lewis and his new version of this party answer that question that working people have? It’s, how are you going to help me out when we’re facing such a tough affordability crisis? We’re being threatened, our jobs are being threatened, our very livelihoods.
I think on that score, Avi Lewis will probably do a great job. He’s an effective communicator, a longtime journalist. He knows — he comes from a family of compelling speakers. So I think he’ll find a way to actually get back into the political narrative. But there’s just so much work that Mr. Lewis has to do in terms of digging the party out of debt, rebuilding electoral district associations across the country. And then arguably also finding a seat in the House of Commons.
Did the NDP pick the right person?
Paikin: Let’s note that the person who came second at the convention was Heather McPherson, who’s an Alberta New Democrat Member of Parliament. And if the job is relevance, do you think the convention picked the right person?
Hall Findlay: For people in Alberta, absolutely not. I would say Alberta, Saskatchewan, an awful lot of British Columbians. Let’s understand British Columbia is an interesting jurisdiction in the sense that there’s an awful lot of folks in the lower mainland that tend to be of Kathleen’s persuasion often. But an awful lot of people in the rest of the province are much more — sorry — pragmatic, and recognizing the importance of our natural resources to our national economic prosperity. I say national very, very consciously. This is not an Alberta thing. It’s not a Saskatchewan thing.
When you have somebody who comes out and says no more energy infrastructure at a time when our country is desperately in need of whatever opportunities for increasing our economic prosperity and recognizing the importance of our resources — and now in the geopolitical world, increasingly our allies around the world who need what we have — seems to me rather naive, frankly. And you can already hear the challenges from Naheed Nenshi, who’s the leader of the NDP in Alberta. Wab Kinew, who I think has done a super job as Premier, looked a little uncomfortable with the convention there. Tony, I can see you smiling.
This will be the bigger challenge: whether the federal NDP becomes relevant. Without really having a real sense of how to find that economic prosperity, the soundbites are great. But, okay, how? You need to actually have some really clear ideas on how to generate the prosperity that you — you can’t have jobs without prosperity. So that’ll be very interesting. But I think what’ll be even more interesting is how do the provincial New Democratic parties find a connection with the federal one, if they can? Because I see a really big division now.
Paikin: Tony, how about you weighing in on this? If becoming a player again on the Canadian political scene is job one, as Kathleen has identified it, did New Democrats pick the right guy?
Clement: Well, I think they picked a guy. We’ll all find out together whether it was the right choice or not. He’s got some good communication skills. He’s savvy. However, I think there’s a big hill to climb. Even some of the images coming out of the NDP convention, which are being mocked in the conservative commentariat sphere — all these different coloured cards, which meant that you had a right to speak or didn’t have a right to speak depending upon your gender or orientation or something. That’s being mocked as ridiculous.
I put it this way to everyone: is Avi Lewis going to be able to represent the factory floor? Or is he still representing the faculty lounge? For conservatives, that’s a very important question too, because we made huge inroads amongst blue-collar workers in parts of Ontario and British Columbia, elsewhere. We want to hold on to those votes and still continue to represent blue-collar workers, which traditionally has been the habitat of the New Democratic Party. So that’s a big job that Avi Lewis has got to do. Can he claw back those votes and that support?
What I saw at that convention, outside of the leader, was a lot of the woke stuff that has, in my view, plagued the NDP for years now. Including, once the leader was announced, everybody got on stage, and the only flag being waived was the Palestine flag. There was no Canadian flag. These are all issues that have to be addressed if they’re going to be relevant in Canadian politics.
Paikin: Kathleen, I should get you to sort of explain — because I suspect most of the people watching or listening to this have not been to New Democratic Party conventions and therefore may not understand the reference Tony just made. There was a lot of traffic on social media commenting on the fact that New Democrats, in an attempt to make sure — because I see this all the time when we do town halls. When I do a town hall show, the people who rush to the microphones tend to be white men. This is an effort by New Democrats to make sure that a broader base of people get a chance to have at the microphone. Why don’t you explain how that works at those conventions?
Monk: I just want to keep your audience. I’m not going to. I think it’s so in the weeds that nobody cares. And I worry about Tony if he’s spending that much time down the Twitter algorithm.
Clement: I worry about me too.
Monk: Because I think the broad base of Canadians really, they don’t attend political conventions. They’re not that engaged. And it’s the issues that really matter — around income inequality, around fairness, around how the price at the grocery store is outrageous, or the pumps right now, what we’re paying at the gas pumps. That’s the message. It’s not the insider political convention.
Listen, New Democrats have around only 100,000 members. About 2,000 — less than 2,000 — attended the convention. This is a drop in the bucket in terms of the voter pool that’s out there. And the larger voter pool is not spending their time on Twitter or in conservative dark rooms talking about cards at the mic. What they’re talking about is the challenges of paying for their kids’ soccer fees this spring. And when Avi Lewis or any New Democratic leader gets out there and actually starts talking about how we’re going to address the affordability crisis — something that Carney really, with the exception of the GST rebate, really hasn’t talked about on a pocketbook level with Canadians — Avi is proposing solutions. Now, whether those solutions will work out, like a public grocery store or a public auction on telecoms or some of these things, that remains to be seen how that policy can get executed and actually operationalized. But I do think the idea that people are looking at their cell phone bills and they’re looking at their grocery bills and saying, this is outrageous, and we want someone to answer that.
And if I could just say one more thing, Steve, on the premiers and the very real regional issues that Martha so eloquently raised — there is a problem with some of the western provinces. But it is important to note that Wab Kinew, who is the most popular premier in the country right now, who is soaring — I don’t know the exact numbers, but I’m sure is as high if not higher than Carney in terms of personal popularity — lent considerable brand equity, political equity, to Mr. Lewis this weekend, and came out a number of times swinging and did not look uncomfortable. I just want to challenge that one point. He embraced Mr. Lewis several times and said on air, “I love the guy. I hope he does well. It’s okay if we disagree on some things. We as New Democrats, we agree on a lot more than we disagree on.” I certainly respect the fact that at this moment in time, the resource issue is a huge challenge for Mr. Lewis. But I do think that if he can be smart enough to thread the needle, to talk about the issues — the affordability crisis, just the living crisis that we’re all going through — he can actually inspire some hope.
Hall Findlay: The two main issues you raised, grocery prices: yet the NDP historically continue to blindly support supply management in dairy, poultry, and eggs in Canada, which happens to be the fundamental group of food that are critically important for our health. And supply management in Canada supports an increasingly small number of very, very wealthy producers in dairy, poultry, and eggs at the expense of grocery prices. So I cannot understand if that is one of his two biggest items that he wants to deal with, but by gosh we’re still going to support supply management. It is absolutely nonsensical.
Monk: Would it be a panel with Martha if supply management wasn’t raised?
Hall Findlay: I couldn’t resist raising it because it was one of the two key points that you just raised for Mr. Lewis’s challenges.
Monk: Well, as long as we’re pushing back here, I’m going to push back a little bit on Tony’s characterization that Wab Kinew looked uncomfortable at the convention.
Clement: I didn’t say that. You said that.
Hall Findlay: No, that was me, Steve. I thought he was.
Paikin: Oh, was that you, Martha? Sorry. That Montreal Canadiens jersey has just got me so flummoxed here.
Monk: I thought as soon as he was finished his speech, Wab Kinew walked right up to him, grabbed his arm, thrust it in the air. They looked like they were getting on just fine. I really do think the ability for somebody like Premier Kinew to say, we might not agree on everything — is an indication of why he’s such a good politician. That’s very authentic.
Government-run grocery stores and Mamdani
Paikin: Tony, government-run grocery stores. Let me just put to you what Andrew Coyne said in his column in the Globe and Mail the other day, which was — no, he wasn’t about to endorse any of those ideas that Avi Lewis has advanced. But having said that, he believes that Lewis believes those in his gut are the right way to go, and that there’s a lot of marks in politics today for authenticity, even if you’re wrong on the issues. What do you think about that possibility?
Clement: Well, it’s amazing that Andrew will say that about the NDP, but he never says that about conservatives. But anyway, I’ll leave that as it may. Look, I think that — as we’ve talked about on the show, about Mamdani and the impact in New York City and the knock-down impact in American progressive politics — you can have a whole series of policies which in their individual cases do not stand. They’re not sensible. But if they show an inclination or a direction of, as we mentioned earlier, passion or defending the little guy or whatever you want to call it, then it does lend itself to authenticity.
I’m not a big fan of government-run grocery stores because I’m not a big fan of government-run anything. But it’s consistent with socialist principles. And Avi has talked about the public ownership and public direction and control will solve our ills. I disagree with that, but it’s an internally consistent and legitimate point of view, which happens not to be my point of view. But I think that they’ve studied Mamdani, I would say, and are learning some lessons. And I think we’re going to see more of that.
To the point of Kathleen, I would anticipate and expect that Lewis as a leader will lean into these cost-of-living issues and these issues of affordability. It’d be crazy if he didn’t. He’s not bananas. He’s smart. So in that sense, we’ll see more of that. And then the only question is whether he gets tripped up by some of the internal inconsistencies within the tent that is progressivism or progressive socialism in Canada, where he can’t get that message out because of all the other ridiculous things that are being said within that tent. So that’s the challenge he has: to keep his eye on the ball, not be distracted by all these other tangential issues, which NDPers tend to focus on. And then he could make some progress.
Monk: I think that Avi Lewis does have an abundance of authenticity. I think that he will relate to people. He’s brought in more members into the party. His fundraising numbers eclipsed leadership fundraising numbers for people like Chrystia Freeland in the last Liberal race and Karina Gould. So he has both political power and some prowess there, but he also has the ability to relate to people. I take Tony’s point that maybe he’s been spending a bit too much time in the ivory tower. I think he borrowed a line on the faculty room stuff versus the factory floor that I’ve heard circulating before. But I do think that his approach — which is one that Canadians want — to address the big issues of our time, cost of living, and then steer off some of the more controversial issues like maybe the resource issue for now, would be smart advice.
I also think that there’s a huge open pathway for Mr. Lewis on things like the environment. I do note that Prime Minister Carney, basically day one after Mr. Lewis’s election, finally rolled out his plan on nature yesterday, dropping something like $3.8 billion that has been widely asked for over a year now. Maybe that was a defensive move by Mr. Carney.
I also think, Steve, that there’s lots of room for New Democrats to criticize the Liberal position and generally criticize, obviously, the war on Iran and the tumult it’s taking around the world. New Democrats in the past got a lot of traction around anti-ballistic missile defence, on the war in Iraq and Canada’s eventual decision not to join that. And then critically — as I was a part of Jack Layton’s team at the time — the decision really to withdraw from Afghanistan and no longer partake in that war. Jack Layton was ridiculed at the time in 2006 when he took that position, badly ridiculed. With a long lens of history, and not that long, even just 20 years, we see that that was really probably the right decision that Mr. Layton made at the time, although it was a very difficult one and he paid a massive political price. So that whole cohort of New Democrats that want us to seek peace is an avenue that Mr. Lewis has as well.
Israel, Gaza and the Jewish vote
Paikin: Let me pursue with Martha, this notion that Tony raised a moment ago — when the victory announcement came, there was a flag on the stage in Winnipeg, but it was the Palestinian flag, not a Canadian flag. Issues of the war in the Middle East and issues of Israel-Palestine have really roiled New Democrats over the last many years to the point where, I think it’s fair to say, Bob Rae, a former Ontario New Democratic Party premier, left the NDP because he couldn’t take what he was seeing as so much anti-Israeli, bordering on anti-Semitic behaviour within the New Democratic Party. Martha, I want you to comment on whether Avi Lewis — a Jewish Canadian who is absolutely against the Netanyahu government, as many Jewish Canadians are, but also seems to be very anti-Israel in many other aspects of his positions as well — has a shot in hell of getting any Jewish votes in the next election, or fundraising in the Jewish community.
Hall Findlay: One of the things that makes me proud to be Canadian — although I think it’s going in a direction that is not a good one in my view over the last little while — is a really strong insistence on, it’s not your religion, it’s not what you look like, it’s not your gender, it’s who are you as an individual. That’s how I was brought up. I have seen over the last 10, 20 years an increased focus on, do you have the background or the ethnicity to be able to speak to this issue or that issue? I really struggle with that, and I really struggle with — and I know so many of our mutual Jewish friends who are extremely frustrated with Netanyahu, extremely frustrated with the government of Israel — but it is not the same thing as being Jewish. That’s very challenging when other people cross that line of, they’re very upset at what Israel is doing and translate that into being anti-Jewish. I can be very anti-Israeli government right now, but that does not mean for a minute that I’m anti-Semitic. That’s a different step.
Paikin: There’s lots of Israelis who are against the Netanyahu government.
Hall Findlay: 100%. Which is exactly my point, Steve. So I just think we really need to remember that. For sure, it’s going to put Mr. Lewis in a tough spot because there are an awful lot of people who do conflate the two. And I just think it’s going to be his job to keep reminding people: your views about a particular government are not necessarily indicative of your views about somebody’s religion, even your own.
Paikin: Tony, you want to come in on that?
Clement: I think that the NDP and its new leader have to ensure that the extra-parliamentary party, if I can use that term, is more than just a collection of activists with particular causes. It’s got to be a political party. If they want to be a bunch of activists — fill your boots, wave the flag, denounce Netanyahu, denounce the war in Iran. You can do all those things, I guess. But that doesn’t make you a political party. A political party is a group of individuals at the individual riding level that want to win elections. That’s the purpose of a political party. And you do that through platforms and policies, but you also do that through channelling your activism to the common goal of winning more seats.
If that isn’t what you’re into, and you’re in the NDP, why are you in the NDP? You can pursue your activism a million other ways, but if you’re in the NDP, you have to start winning ridings. And if I were Avi Lewis, I’d be concerned that most NDPers don’t want to do that, because they certainly haven’t acted that way. At least in what I’ve seen. So he’s got to turn that ship around. Build up the riding associations, fundraise, do the things that political parties do. And it may not be as exciting as waving a flag in front of the U.S. consulate. But if you want to win elections and actually have an impact on policy and the future of the country, you’ve got to exercise some discipline. And I would say that of my conservative friends as well.
Paikin: Kathleen, let me get you to speak to this tightrope that Avi Lewis has to walk. On the one hand, presumably he would like to get some votes out of the Jewish community in this country. But on the other hand, he hasn’t been shy in saying that in his view there’s genocide going on in Gaza, which will not endear him to many in the Jewish community — although I hasten to add, some in the Jewish community would agree with that. How does he do that?
Monk: I think that Mr. Lewis is keen to make life better for Canadians. And that will require for him to get into power and into Parliament to do so. So I think he’s going to try to not get distracted by some of these issues. I don’t want this conversation to devolve into a question about what has been happening in the Middle East. But it is important to note that Stephen Lewis himself, in his final year of living, showed up with his walker at a protest —
Paikin: Yes, he did.
Monk: — to ensure that people knew. He wanted parliamentarians to acknowledge the genocide that was happening in Gaza. So I don’t think that that’s going to be a front-burner issue for Mr. Lewis. The work that he has in front of him is so enormous internally and externally. Including getting some internal discipline, just in terms of looking at — from a political perspective — who he fires and who he hires, who he’s going to surround himself with. Leadership campaigns, you know this, Steve, so well, that they’re very divisive things for a party. And when we look at the votes, while certainly Mr. Lewis won a commanding first-ballot victory, there were substantial parts of the party that voted for other visions. The West is particularly one. He’s got to unify that.
I want to see who he appoints as parliamentary leader. That is going to be critical. Will he stay with Don Davies? Will he choose someone else? Leah Gazan was the only MP that actually endorsed him. Will he choose Ms. Gazan to be that leader? What does he do first? Is it just travelling around the country? Is it dealing with the books? The books are a big issue.
Should Avi Lewis run in Beaches—East York?
Paikin: There’s a lot of assumptions in this question, but let’s put it on the record. If Member of Parliament Nate Erskine-Smith wins the Liberal nomination to run provincially in Scarborough Southwest — which ironically enough is part of Stephen Lewis’s old seat — that opens up a federal seat in Beaches—East York. Should Avi Lewis contest that seat?
Monk: I would think that he’s got to consider it deeply. He has said clearly that getting into Parliament is not a top priority for him. He wants to tour the country, rebuild the EDAs, and arguably you could say — because it looks like Mr. Carney will get his majority by stealth — he might have some more time to do that, to be outside of Parliament. But I agree with you, Steve. Beaches is technically a winnable NDP seat. It’s switched back and forth. The Toronto elite would rally behind him. He could get the funding needed. We certainly won it in the past, both on a provincial and on a federal level. So it’s doable. Mr. Lewis lived in Toronto, albeit in Parkdale—High Park area, for many, many years of his life. So it seems doable. If he chooses not to contest it, you’d want to ask why.
But he also doesn’t have a lot of options to win. If he runs — he’s already run twice, as you know, on the West Coast, and lost both on the island and in Vancouver. If he runs a third time — in politics, we like to say, ooh — you can try for a fourth and a fifth, but it’s not a great look, especially if you’re the leader of a party. So I do think the Nate Erskine-Smith choice is going to be a tough one, and it will obviously happen quite soon.
Paikin: Tony, if you were advising him, would you tell him to go for the Beaches if it opens up?
Clement: No, I think it’s too soon. That would be a mistake. He’s got to get a lot more ducks lined up. I don’t see the urgency of him trying to enter Parliament at the first opportunity. Steve, I’m a bit of a romantic, as you know. I kind of like the historical aspect. His grandfather represented York South. Yeah, so I’d run there. I just like the —
Paikin: That’s a hard seat. It’d be a harder seat for New Democrats to win.
Clement: I canvassed in that riding in the last election. I would say that a lot of those Liberal votes are just Liberal historically because they haven’t really had much of another choice. So anyway, that’s just me. Don’t listen to me, Avi, for sure. But that’d be kind of neat. Did I ever tell you the story about how I almost became a New Democrat?
Paikin: What?
Clement: When I was 12 to 14, I was living in York South. My mom just got divorced. We moved out of Hamilton. We moved into an apartment building on Marlee Avenue. And my best friend, whose first name was Vern — Vern Friedlander — said to me, hey, there’s this thing going on. There’s a barbecue with David Lewis. He’s the MP. Would you like to come out to the barbecue with me? I kind of thought about it and I thought, nah, not my thing. Vern, you go ahead. And he did. But I always wonder, Steve, and I always wonder, Kathleen — if I had gone to that barbecue —
Monk: Would you be a firebrand New Democrat for the rest of your life? You can still see the light, Tony. Come on over. Come on over to the light. Never too late.
Paikin: Talk about the road not taken. All right, Martha, let me get you in on this. What’s your advice to Avi Lewis? If the Beaches opens up, should he run there?
Hall Findlay: Well, I should not be anyone to be giving Avi Lewis advice, but I agree with Tony. I think it would be too soon. And Kathleen, yeah, three times — that would not be a good look. I don’t know — Diefenbaker lost four or five before he won the party leadership.
Monk: This is true.
Hall Findlay: I was actually going to invoke the Diefenbaker example. But I would also take exception, Kathleen — you did a pretty blanket statement saying the Toronto elite will be behind him. I don’t think so. Especially not with Mark Carney now. So I don’t think Beaches would be a slam dunk at all. I think he has a really big rebuilding job to do. And it probably would make sense for him to do that. I’m not as romantic as Tony is on that. I think being pragmatic is probably more important for Mr. Lewis right now. But it might be too early to run at this point.