David Herle: Greetings, you curious and curiously Burlites. With me today is Carla Beck, leader of the Saskatchewan New Democratic Party, the official opposition in the Saskatchewan legislature and a heartland NDPer. As you know, I’m from Saskatchewan. My political roots are there. I love Saskatchewan politics. This is my opportunity and yours to get all caught up on what’s going on in Saskatchewan politics and whether the NDP have a plan to beat Scott Moe and the Sask Party in the next election. Stick around for my exchange with Ms. Beck about the implications of Avi Lewis’s victory in the federal NDP leadership and what that means for her prospects of election in Saskatchewan.
Welcome to the Herle Burly and thanks so much for making time with us today.
Carla Beck: I’m thrilled to be here with you today, David.
David Herle: How are you? How are things?
Carla Beck: Busy. Good, but busy. It’s spring here in Saskatchewan and we’re about to get a snowstorm. And a lot of storms happening here in the legislature.
David Herle: What is driving politics in Saskatchewan these days? If you dropped into a coffee shop, what would people want to talk to you about?
Carla Beck: The cost of living. Gas prices probably. We’re looking at gas prices upwards of a buck seventy a liter right now. We’ve got a lot of folks who not only drive trucks and big vehicles, they need them for their work here in Saskatchewan. And a sense that everything’s more and more expensive and people are having a harder time just making ends meet. I guarantee you gas prices are coming up on Coffee Row.
David Herle: Other than gas prices, what’s part of the affordability challenge in Saskatchewan? In other parts of the country, often housing is mentioned. Is shelter part of the affordability crisis in Saskatchewan?
Carla Beck: It is for many people in the province. We’ve had 43 months of rent increases in this province. We’ve seen some other jurisdictions actually see some decreases — that’s not happening here. Certainly when you’re talking with young people and seniors, that comes up a lot. It’s a huge driver. Grocery prices are another one. I guarantee you, we’re out on the doorsteps a lot. People are really concerned and they can see it every week. What they spent last week doesn’t go as far as it does this week.
There isn’t a room that we go in where you don’t hear from someone who’s got an absolute heartbreaking story about trying to find healthcare in this province right now.
David Herle: So the Saskatchewan Party’s been in office for so long that it’s very tempting to think of them as the natural governing party of Saskatchewan. But you really knocked on the door last time. It was close. What is the case for change in Saskatchewan?
Carla Beck: I think people in this province don’t like to be taken for granted. There really is a sense of entitlement right now with this government. When we were just talking about affordability issues — instead of responding in any way — we just had a budget where there were no affordability measures offered to people in this province, where we do experience the highest rates of financial anxiety in the entire country, month after month. They didn’t respond to that. This is a government that instead tells people in this province how good they have it, how affordable things are.
A government that has stopped listening and has stopped responding to people in the province. There’s a bit of a disease that long-in-the-tooth governments can get where they feel very entitled to their entitlements. People in this province don’t take that too well. We came very close in the last election — 1,600 votes. Four seats. This is a team that hasn’t stopped working since that election. We know that change is needed in this province.
David Herle: Very interesting answer, Ms. Beck, in the sense that to my ear that sounds like a managerial difference rather than an ideological difference. You’re not promising a radically different style of government — you’re promising a more responsive and effective government.
Carla Beck: What we are offering is a government that is not content to talk. I always say to people, when we’re in government and we are making changes, we’re addressing these issues, we’re not going to have to put up billboards to tell you how good you have it. You’re going to feel it. You’re going to be able to get a doctor. You are going to notice it when you go to pay your bills.
Basic transparency is something that this government promised when they were elected almost 20 years ago. We are so far away from a government that feels like they have to answer to anyone. We need to get back to those basics — transparency, delivering the services that we need, and making sure this still incredibly rich province — $22 billion revenue from natural resources — actually benefits people and makes their lives better.
David Herle: You are sharply critical of the Moe government’s fiscal record. Yet this is not the Divine years that are bankrupting the province. It is, I think, the second-best fiscal record in Canada after Alberta. Why are you so critical of it?
Carla Beck: There’s a lot that reminds me of the late ’80s into the early ’90s. This government is now projecting $43.5 billion in debt. A government that last year promised us a $12 million surplus that turned into a $1.2 billion deficit. Scott Moe himself has bested Brent Devine’s record. He’s actually doubled the debt in eight short years.
A government that’s spending more, but we’ve fallen from first to last in healthcare, first to last in education. Highest financial anxiety, as I said. They’re spending a lot of money, but unfortunately people in this province aren’t benefiting.
Right now in this province we’re spending three times what we’re spending on public safety just to send that cheque to bankers on Bay Street and Wall Street to cover debt servicing. It is becoming a problem.
We as New Democrats have been good fiscal managers. We have taken the resources of this province and made sure that we’re being wise with those decisions and that those resources benefit people. We’re not seeing that right now.
David Herle: But I’ve done a lot of work on people’s attitudes about debt and deficit. And I can tell you that one of the things that people don’t like either are spending cuts or tax increases. How would you propose to deal with the deficit problem?
Carla Beck: We have a government that spends a lot, but we don’t see necessarily the benefit. We’re sending women to Calgary to have basic diagnostics for breast cancer — that’s ten times the cost of what it would cost if we had those services available in this province. We are spending two to three times for contract nurses because this government has driven healthcare workers out of the province. We’ve got, on any given day — last summer we had 15 rural healthcare closures in one day in this province.
The government last January announced — I think it surprised most people including some who really should have been in the know — that we were going to burn coal for perpetuity in this province. That’s an incredibly expensive plan that we’ve shown to be at least two times more expensive than our plan that we’ve put forward — our Grid and Growth plan.
David Herle: Is that just southeast Saskatchewan, Estevan politics? Is that what that is?
Carla Beck: It impacts Estevan and Coronach. In part there’s been a failure to plan how we’re going to keep lights on in this province. It’s not like they didn’t know that phasing out coal was going to be something they’d have to deal with. But it’s a government that has used political wedge issues time and time again — to some effect that has benefited them — but has kept them from actually making a plan for how we keep lights on, how we generate electricity, and how we keep rates low.
We had an extraordinary letter where a number of the major power users in this province wrote to this government and said: your rate hikes, the instability in this space, is not only impacting businesses that are here but it’s impacting our ability to attract major investments. We have what the world needs. I’ll agree with the premier on that. But we don’t have a government that is being transparent or providing that predictability, that long-term view that not only people in this province expect, but that major investors need in order to make those investments.
David Herle: Okay, I want to talk with you about the economy and your plan, but I’m a lefty at heart. So I’ve got to come back to one thing here. I’m from a distance. I shouldn’t judge anymore — I don’t live there. But it feels to me like the healthcare system’s in a genuine crisis in Saskatchewan. More people are without a primary family physician in Saskatchewan than in any other province, and Saskatchewan has among the highest rates of food insecurity in all of Canada. So it feels to me like there are real social pressures, and I’m wondering how that gets juxtaposed with deficit reduction. Do you actually want to spend less money?
Carla Beck: I think we want to spend money more effectively. We go back to the GTH — still something that stinks to high heaven — where for a couple dozen kilometres of road around Regina on some of the flattest prairie that exists on the planet, we spent more than what was spent in real terms on building the Coquihalla. And they still managed to rip off the nuns in it.
There are concerns that we overspent by hundreds of millions on a couple of water bombers. The list goes on and on. This isn’t just about how much money we’re spending — it’s how effectively, and how much it benefits the people of this province.
Just yesterday we found out that we’re no longer doing surgeries in Regina for neonates. Babies with life-threatening needs who need surgery are now going to be flown to Saskatoon for that surgery. This is a system in crisis and a government that instead of digging in and fixing those problems does a victory lap and a round of self-congratulations. It’s out of touch, it’s irresponsible, and this is why people in this province are really looking for change.
David Herle: So I want to I want to ask about your motivation question about healthcare and the Moe government. Do you think they don’t know how to fix it or they don’t want to fix it?
Carla Beck: I go back and forth on this. They’re being wilfully ignorant for sure. There are solutions to be found. There’s a theory that conservatives want to break it so that they can bring in two-tier. In healthcare and education — if when people care about a system you can’t take it away, so if you reduce the service, if you break the system, it’s easier to then sell it off and have your buddies make profit off of it.
It could be both: a little incompetence or wilful ignorance and a little desire to break the system to make it profitable for others. Whatever their motivation is, it’s Saskatchewan people who are paying the price. And we’re here to say there’s a better path.
Something as simple as getting our healthcare workers in this province a deal. Four years without a deal for healthcare workers in this province. We actually have healthcare workers who are selling plasma to pay their bills. That’s not a great recruitment or retention strategy.
David Herle: Can you tell me a little bit about your plan for the economy of Saskatchewan? What your objectives would be and how that might differ from what the current government’s doing?
Carla Beck: I think the number one thing — and there are some points of agreement with myself and the premier, mostly based around the fact that we do have what the world needs right now. Uranium, potash, oil and gas, our ag sector, critical minerals — that opportunity does exist here. The difference I see most keenly first is making that opportunity real. Working with other levels of government to actually ensure we have the infrastructure to make good on that opportunity, and that we have the labour force. If you go anywhere in the province and start talking about major infrastructure projects, people say yeah, that’s a great idea. The quiet part is: who the hell’s going to build it right now, because we don’t have the labour force.
We have a vision that when the economy is doing well, people should be able to feel it in their communities. They should be able to feel it when they go to pay their bills. They should be able to have the healthcare available no matter where they live in this province. And we sure as heck shouldn’t be in a position where we’ve got the highest rates of child poverty, some of the highest rates of violent crime.
David Herle: Do you see any major industries that should be developed that aren’t being developed? I mean, industrial strategy is back in vogue. Governments are allowed to plan the economy again now. And I know this is uncomfortable to say, but if you’re looking into the future, one does have to contemplate that at least on the oil side, there may over time be some reduction in the amount that’s sold. What’s the new economy for Saskatchewan after that?
Carla Beck: Our Grid and Growth plan — one of the key things is that we need to invest in that electricity grid right now to ensure that we can capture the growth that we have potential for. Uranium is one of those pieces. We have one of the richest uranium deposits in the entire world here in Saskatchewan. Critical minerals. And then there’s the tech sector — I think we’ve not grown there in the way that we can.
David Herle: Do you support nukes?
Carla Beck: We do. Yes. I think there’s real potential for small modular reactors. Young people very much see this as part of the future of how we generate electricity. That’s an important piece.
Part of this too is about retaining and attracting young people to this province. Some of the policies of this government are forcing young people out. We’ve had two consecutive quarters of population decline in Saskatchewan. We’ve seen a decrease in small businesses. People come here from away and say: oh my goodness, you’ve got so much here, people are so friendly, this feels like a wonderful place to raise a family. The quiet thing they don’t always say is this isn’t the view they had of Saskatchewan. We need to tell that story.
David Herle: What should the government do about cost of living? If you were to ask them that question, they would claim they’ve made significant tax reductions that at the low end of the income scale should be helping people through this crisis. Do you think that’s adequate?
Carla Beck: Not only do I not think it’s adequate — Saskatchewan people have the highest rates of financial anxiety in the entire country, consistently. We have the highest rates of mortgages in arrears. We’ve got healthcare workers selling plasma or sleeping in their cars.
Here’s a simple one we’ve been calling on for a long time, especially with gas at a buck seventy: take the PST off gas. Something that would make a real difference in real time. I mentioned rent control — 43 consecutive months of rent increases. Taking the tax off groceries, off children’s clothing. The other side is making sure that people have access to good jobs, good-paying jobs, that we grow the economy.
David Herle: So the gas tax seems like an obvious move. I mean, even the feds have gotten around to that. What’s Moe’s reluctance?
Carla Beck: I honestly don’t know. We were really pressuring them after the Russian invasion of Ukraine. We saw Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario all at different points take the tax off gas. Of course we’re taking in revenue right now with these sky-high oil prices.
David Herle: Yeah. This is going to dramatically improve their balance sheet. I think they budgeted for $57 or $60 a barrel and now it’s at $100.
Carla Beck: So there’s this windfall revenue coming in. Give people a break. We’ve seen the feds do it. We’ve seen the federal Conservative leader calling for this. We’ve seen it done in other provinces. We’ve seen this government stubbornly refuse to do that.
David Herle: Okay. Now I want to get a little more philosophical with you. Why are rural Saskatchewanians so conservative? I think rural Saskatchewan might be the most conservative part of Canada based on the polling I look at. And I’m interested as somebody that comes from rural Saskatchewan, is connected to rural Saskatchewan, and is trying to get the votes of people who live there — what is driving their conservatism and their antipathy toward progressive politics?
Carla Beck: In the last election, one of the things we get asked most about is that urban-rural divide. When you look at the map, we captured all but one seat in the cities, in the north — and the rest of the map is green. What that map doesn’t show is that we did increase vote share outside those cities. In places like Yorkton there was a 32% swing.
What we found was effective — and this sounds too easy — if you go looking for differences, you’re absolutely going to find them. But if you go looking for real ways to connect with people in rural Saskatchewan, if you listen to their concerns, they’re largely the same as concerns in urban Saskatchewan. They’re worried about paying their bills. They’re worried about being able to get healthcare. They want to see their communities thrive. They want a future for their kids. They want good jobs. They want safe communities.
There are a lot of rooms in this province that we haven’t been in for a long time. Sometimes to get underneath all of the messaging, all of the us-versus-them framing we’ve seen in politics, you have to just go sit on Coffee Row and be prepared to connect with people on real terms. Show that you’re concerned about the same things that they are. Give us 20 minutes in a room with almost anyone in this province and you can find connection.
People in rural Saskatchewan often feel judged. They feel like they’re talked down to. They think that people don’t understand their way of life. Respect and building that trust is really key. People in rural Saskatchewan are not being well served right now. They are losing their healthcare. They are losing businesses. Watch the numbers in their schools drop year after year in many communities.
David Herle: Your ancestors in your party were rural populists, and rural Saskatchewan voted in large numbers for New Democrats. When confronted with challenges, rural Saskatchewan residents turned to collective action to protect themselves against larger corporate and governmental interests. What’s happened to that? Where has that impulse gone?
Carla Beck: Rural Saskatchewan has changed a lot. The size of farms, all of those things have changed. For some people it is ideological in this province, but it has also been pragmatic. We set up co-ops because the big companies wouldn’t come here. Tommy Douglas built the Crown Corporation and made sure every farm had electricity because no one else was going to do it if we didn’t do it for ourselves. We have always needed each other in this province.
That collectivist reality still exists in communities right across this province — people put aside differences to make sure the lights are on at the rink and someone’s cleaning up the ball diamonds. But some of those differences have been weaponized by divisive politics. I think a lot of people are just tired of this and want to see practical solutions. They want to be respected and invited in. They want practical results.
David Herle: Okay. So if I was you, I would be furious — furious — at the Federal New Democratic Party. You may be, because you issued a very strong public statement after their leadership decision. I don’t understand it — I would genuinely be angry about it — because you’ve got a BC government that is fighting for its life against a very right-wing alternative. You’ve got an Alberta NDP that has, after a century in the wilderness, found its way competitive, fighting to win the government there. And then you’ve got yourself, who came within a hair’s breadth of winning last time, but has to win some more seats in order to get across the line. The federal party makes a choice that is so cavalier about the consequences of that choice on the parties in those three western provinces. The federal party has five or six members and it’s arguable whether there will be a federal NDP government first or nuclear fusion. But out here, where you are, there’s actually a chance to govern. And they made a choice that makes that significantly more difficult. Are you going to think about rebranding, or in some other way distinguishing yourself from a party that is going to argue against any further fossil fuel development?
Carla Beck: Well, look, I did make pretty clear the very real difference between —
David Herle: But you can’t carry them around on your back.
Carla Beck: No. The Grid and Growth plan — bringing that out and showing that we do have a plan to increase renewables, to keep power on in this province, a very practical plan based in the reality out here in Saskatchewan — that was really important. There is a very big difference between us and the federal party on that issue alone. I’ve sent a copy of that report to the federal NDP leader. This is no doubt a concern for the western provinces.
Not only are those differences real, we have seen fairly deliberate conflation of the two parties — which are separate, our policies are separate — by those who don’t want to lose power here. So yeah, it’s an issue. There have always been differences between the federal party and —
David Herle: I watched the Saskatchewan Liberal Party try to do this. It was the government of Saskatchewan. It was a powerful force in Saskatchewan. But it could not survive Pierre Trudeau. He killed the Liberal Party in Saskatchewan. They went to extraordinary lengths to distinguish themselves, changed their colour, changed their logo — but the label is the same.
Carla Beck: Look, on the issue of rebranding or whatever measure constitutionally — I’m one vote there. What we are working very hard to show is what our plan here is in this province. Where there are real differences with all of the federal parties — and to show a clear plan about who we are, tell our story as Saskatchewan New Democrats, who have always been independent, who have had fights with federal leaders of all stripes before.
I think people here in this province are practical. They understand that there is a difference. We saw differences in how people voted in the federal election and in the provincial election. Continuing to put forth our plans very clearly, communicate them to people in this province, and build trust around this team — this Saskatchewan New Democrat team. That’s really been our focus. What the membership chooses — I’m one vote at convention. We’ve got a good plan in front of us and a fantastic team and we’re going to continue talking about what real change in Saskatchewan looks like.
We’re kind of used to out here on the prairies, some of those decisions that make sense down east aren’t practical out here. They don’t make sense for people in this province. We’re putting forward those practical solutions.
David Herle: My gratuitous advice is that the right wing has demonstrated that a local brand is better than a national brand in the western provinces. It makes a lot of intuitive sense given that westerners always assume that eastern parties don’t really think about them, don’t really have their best interests at heart. If you run a national brand in a provincial election, you probably have one arm tied behind your back these days. And I think the federal NDP extraordinarily cavalierly made that much more difficult for you.
I have one last question for you. There’s a separatist movement in Alberta. Saskatchewan and Alberta share a lot in common in terms of their political culture and there are humans who have traveled back and forth. Almost everybody in Saskatchewan has relatives in Alberta and vice versa. I think the Alberta premier is complicit in fermenting separatist feelings in Alberta — she does nothing to dampen it and a lot to exaggerate it. I don’t think Moe has been as bad, but I’ve seen some of the same things out of him. What should the role of the premier of Saskatchewan be in the federation at this time?
Carla Beck: I think the role of all leaders in this country right now is to show that we are better off as Canadians. This talk of separation when we’re talking about being able to attract the investment that we need into this province or in Alberta — this is damaging to our country. It’s not a path that we want to go down and even to entertain it is dangerous.
There’s a lot of evidence — just the talk of separation in Quebec, what that did to the economy there. We need to be telling those stories very clearly: this is a dangerous game that we are playing. We need to be able to say no, and not just quietly. We need to be full-throated in the fact that we are better off as Canadians. It’s easy to have fights with people who sit across the aisle. It is maybe most important inside your own circles to be able to say no, to have those hard conversations.
I think Moe needs to be clear about it, full-throated. It’s dangerous and frankly damaging to not do that.
David Herle: Absolutely. All right. I’d like to thank our sponsors for making this show possible and all of you Herle Burlites who watched or listened to this. I particularly want to thank Carla for taking the time to do this and for your service to the province and the country. Thank you very much for putting yourself through this. Politics is not an easy business.
Carla Beck: I like the vibe. Thanks, David. Take care. Great to be with you.