And joining me now is one of the co-authors of the Leap Manifesto, Avi Lewis, and also one of its biggest supporters. Talking, of course, about Stephen Lewis, happens to be the father of Avi Lewis, in case you want. Welcome to you both. This is great fun both having you here. Listen, I want to start off because Rachel Notley was in this room over the weekend saying she is a progressive. And that building pipelines is not inimical to being progressive. You stood and addressed this crowd and said, “No, on the contrary, we have to take a sharp stand as a progressive movement.” This really seems to me to be fighting for the soul of this party. Yes, although I don’t I mean, it’s necessary to see how Rachel Notley evolves her policies. And and it’s very tough for her at the moment in the climate in Alberta. And all of us sympathize and understand that. Avi and I have talked about it often. But but you cannot avoid the reality both in Canada and internationally of the struggle for the survival of the planet. And the need over time to move from fossil fuels to renewable sources of energy like wind and solar. And if the party can’t deal with that in a mature, grown-up, serious debate, then there’s something wrong with the party. Then it’s lacking a soul, let alone an intelligence. And I think the party can deal with those things. Avi is one of the co-authors of the Leap Manifesto. When Rachel Notley took a direct swipe at you, or at least the Leap Manifesto, what did you think? Thinly veiled. Yeah. I I was admiring the skill of her speech. Um I was You know, I think this reducing uh the battle for the soul of the NDP to a matter of pipelines is just not just not right. Um what was really thrilling about Dad’s speech uh at the convention was was the the just the excitement and potential of a mission moment, of a nation-building moment around shifting our energy system and dealing with the panoply of other issues that we face at the same time. That’s the spirit of Leap Manifesto. And the Alberta government, and we’ve recognized this, is taking lots of really important steps. What a Leap looks like in Alberta and what a Leap looks like elsewhere, we live in different political climates. And so I think there’s been a lot of like tussle about the personalities and the pipelines. And actually, I think we’re moving in compatible directions. We can we we we should reserve the right to push the Alberta government as as far as we can as people who are really passionate about it, but it’s not a conflict of views. A very few, you’re right on the cusp of it, Tom. A very few days from now, the Alberta Alberta budget emerges. And apparently in that budget, there will be significant components of green energy and of environmental protection. And once that happens, I suspect there’ll be a a tremendous release of uh you know, the party will be emancipated. We can all deal collectively now with this stuff. But but you know what that said, I don’t think it was necessary to take a swipe at manifestos for a simple reason. There was a little manifesto that was helpful in the founding of this party called the Regina Manifesto. And it was a big, expansive, ambitious document that laid out a huge vision for social change. And manifestos have a big place in this party. Is that I’ll have to remind Rachel of that if I see her. Is that what you’re doing though, Avi? You and the other authors of this and you as a great supporter of this. Is this the new Regina Manifesto? Is this the new blueprint for progressive politics in this country? It’s certainly a centerpiece of the debate around progressive politics, I think. I don’t think the beauty of the Leap Manifesto is the coverage. Is the way it raises all of the issues, including the caring professions, including Aboriginal rights, including the struggle around the grotesque inequality in society. And trade agreements. And trade agreements. Everything. It’s just a lovely opening of the discussion of what you call the soul of the party. But it’s it’s it’s it’s really a response to to the urgency gap. I mean, we look at the science and we hear our politicians say, “We know this is happening. It’s absolutely existential what’s facing our planet and and us as a species.” But then when we look at the policies, that urgency is just not conveyed. So it’s a it’s an attempt to outline something that really meets the measure of this moment. And that’s available to everyone who cares about about politics, not just people in this party. Let me ask you both this, but specifically to you, Stephen, because I remember that night when you became the official leader of the opposition in Ontario. It was a signature moment for the Ontario NDP. And in that speech that night, you said, “Boy, it’s nice to have a political victory for a change instead of another moral victory.” The opponents of what you were supporting and what you wrote have said, “That’s all well and good that you want to put a moratorium on building pipelines and get rid of them entirely after a certain period of time, but that’s not the route to political power. And unless you have political power, you change nothing.” Uh-huh. And would you think that the route to political power was the way we handled the last campaign?
[laughter] In the more tradition Yeah, exactly. I I I think one could argue that we’ve tried other approaches. It hasn’t been an astonishing success. I think it makes great sense both philosophically and pragmatically to look at an alternative vision for the party at this at this point in time. Why not? That’s what democratic socialists do. But can you get political buy-in in terms of a route to power with something as radical, seemingly radical, as what you’re proposing? think it’s I I I mean, here’s the deal. We are facing radical changes to the physical world that are coming slamming at us. They’re already happening. The future is radical regardless. If we don’t take radical change, we face even more radical physical changes. We need to change economic political systems in a major way to avoid catastrophe. So, you know, sure, you can call it radical or political politically unfeasible. It’s a response to the urgency of the moment that says, “Everything in our future is radical. So, let’s look at the options. Let’s explode what’s politically possible.” And around the world right now, politicians like Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn in the UK who are exploding the political playbook using the S word forthrightly as Dad did in his socialist rant at the end of his speech. They’re tapping a vein of deep energy now. And in 2030, people will look back and say, “God, Avi Lewis, he was so tentative. He was so cautious. He was so without passion and vision.” And I mean, what what emerges in the Leap Manifesto is is just a precursor of what everybody is going to be on side about within a few years. But many are now. I I’ve got such so little time left, but this is such an unusual moment to have the two of you here. You know, and I can’t help but think because I remember seeing your dad uh in action. And then I saw you take over from your dad. And in some respects, Avi, stepping up as you are, uh whether you’re successful or not doesn’t matter, but is this is this the Lewis dynasty that we’re watching here? You know what I You know what I’ve been thinking of? As I’ve been here sort of talking about these social movements that came together behind the Leap Manifesto and engaging with a a major federal political party, great-grandpa was a Bundist. And the Bund in the in in the 19th century and early 20th century was a labor union, a political party, a social movement, and a cultural movement. And there weren’t those divisions. And what we’re seeing with the Leap sort of entering the political fray is social movements blurring the lines with the electoral world and and and and making common cause with trade unions with a cultural aspect. So, I think we need a more holistic politics. That that’s for me the the inherent message. There’s four. And and and Avi has a son whom they’re forcing to lick envelopes now at the age of three so that we have the transition in an appropriate way. Ha ha We don’t use envelopes anymore. We use keyboards. Oh my god. [laughter] Oh my god. Stephen Lewis, Avi Lewis, a great pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much for your time. really a pleasure.